Likes Likes:  8
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: WL tonnage vs PL tonnage

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    67
    Post Thanks / Like

    WL tonnage vs PL tonnage

    I just can´t handle a 5300 kg for 134 reps, ~40kg/rep WL spreadsheet. It is a regular program. Diferent sets with diferent loads for Muscle Snatches, Over the Head Squats, power snatches, and a non-human complex as a finisher. Just can´t. I confess. Intensities were between 50 to 70. Only one set for push press + over the head squat was at 80%. I did a split of this session for two days providing a total of ~2600 kg at each one. After this I finished "alive" these session.

    On the other hand, for my suprise, I trained yesterday a bench press session. I were 6590 for 125 reps, ~53 kg/rep. I had energy enough to do pull-ups and ab-wheels during my lifts. Absolutely no problems. My intensity was at 55%.

    This symptom felt at bench press is repeated for deadlift and squat sessions.

    I really feel very exhausted in oly sessions which involve five, four repetions, and, in cases of complexes, even two/three repetions.

    Could you guys, please, explain - if it exists - the diferences regarding trainning variables between powerlifting and olympic weightlifting?
    Any tips?

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    461
    Post Thanks / Like
    There is a lot of meat on this bone, but briefly.....

    Consider:-

    * What are you adapted to with regard to your training history?
    * Weight and reps require the context of distance that it is being moved and how skilled you are it performing that task.
    * Are you consuming enough calories to perform the work in your training session.
    * Tonnage will be calculated starting at certain percentages..... some above 60%, some above 65%, some above 70%.
    * Time under tension might be drastically different for sessions that are quite similar in tonnage lifted.

    Chew on some of these thoughts and consider what it means for your training.

  3. Likes brownbear1968 liked this post
  4. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    287
    Post Thanks / Like
    Bench is generally easier to recover from. Snatch and clean and jerk are much more taxing for the nervous system.
    In regards to the training volume. Was this plan generated for you or is it something you have picked up on the internet? If the latter really question for whom this plan was generated and whether it fits to you. Volume for volume's sake is quite useless.

  5. Likes brownbear1968 liked this post
  6. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    67
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Kaz View Post
    Bench is generally easier to recover from. Snatch and clean and jerk are much more taxing for the nervous system.
    In regards to the training volume. Was this plan generated for you or is it something you have picked up on the internet? If the latter really question for whom this plan was generated and whether it fits to you. Volume for volume's sake is quite useless.
    Recovery. This is the word that I am suspecting.

    My bench recovery is something similar to squat and deadlift. Snatch / Clean & Jerk don´t. It is what you wrote. They are more complex, pluriarticular than the three previous ones. I´ve read in some place I don´t remember that, in weightlifting, the correct work with the arms is to 'see' them as hooks. They are not intended to be a main strenght component. I am noobie and I cannot play this rule yet. I spend a considerable energy with my arms. I think that I will post some lifts in the evaluation thread.

    But as Hawkpeter commented, I am at a low carb diet which restricts my carbs intake up to 100 g. It is not the 'low carb religion', I only do restrictictions for carb sources with a kitchen scale. But I eat rice, fruits, etc.
    Protein is at 2,2 g/kg-lbm and Fats are at 1 g/kg-lbm. This provides values between 1900 to 2010 calories which is a deficit condition.
    But this carb restriction forces me to spend 1-2, sometimes three minutes, or more, between sets. It did not need such interval when the carb tax was higher.

  7. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    818
    Post Thanks / Like
    As pointed out previously, the Olympic lifts are much more taxing neurologically than the slow lifts. That is the first thing to understand.

    Second, low carb diet is not conducive to strength training. The carbohydrates are necessary for training for and recovery. It is recommended that carbs are at least equal to dietary protein, preferably higher.

  8. Likes brownbear1968 liked this post
  9. #6
    AKA Tony Arkitect FFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'm going to be the voice of dissent here and say that Powerlifting is generally more taxing than Weightlifting. There are of course many variables that are dependent on the general style of programming you're using as well as the phase of training you're in. A few things to consider:

    -Powerlifts are typically heavier than snatches and clean & jerks, with the exception of bench press, although many people can bench more than they can snatch.

    -If you look at the frequency of 90%+ lifts it's much greater in Weightlifting, that's because the athletes can tolerate those weights more readily. This is especially true of deadlifts

    -Powerlifting sets can go as high as 10 reps or even more in the competition lifts. In Weightlifting a set of 5 is a lot and quite rare.

    -There are 3 competition lifts instead of 2

    I would say overall tonnage in a Powerlifting program should be higher simply because the amount of weight being lifted is greater, and the number of reps being performed is typically higher as well. I think it's more important to manage the fatigue in Weightlifting because speed and timing will decrease first with fatigue and they have a greater impact on the quick lifts.

  10. Likes brownbear1968 liked this post
  11. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    67
    Post Thanks / Like
    I will confess another point that I didn´t mention:

    I began to feel such stress in my wl training sessions after my coach developed a high volume/high repetions program.

    An example: there is a complex which it is composed of muscle snatch + snatch + snatch balance + over-the-head squat. I have to perform THREE SETS of FOUR reps (each rep is composed of the four movements) at 50% and, after this, THREE SETS of THREE reps at 60%. This is a near-death experience, for me. But the program has other exercises on the same day. This is close to a Cross Fit WOD... lol.

    I was used to work with triples, doubles, and singles. That´s it. After one set... take the towel, water, look sideways, adjust the music depending on the percentage of the load, look to the bar, walks to the bar, prepare mindset, and lift. Well, I am 50 yo and I am strugling against some stuff (type 2 diab, obesity, etc).
    This slow-and-easy training allows me, at low carb or not, to deal with my usual percentages without near-death feelings.
    I strongly suspect that the main problem is the prescribed high-rep/high volume program combined with the low-carb. With a low-rep/high volume I can go up to a two hour session training.
    I looked for a coach just to find a better techinical quality of my lifts. But, to find someone to give tips about my lifts I can use this kind forum on the evaluation technique thread.
    Last edited by brownbear1968; 07-19-2018 at 03:31 PM.

  12. #8
    AKA Tony Arkitect FFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    I hate to down your coach, especially because I don't know who he is, but any weight you can muscle snatch for multiple reps isn't really worth you snatching.

  13. Likes brownbear1968 liked this post
  14. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    64
    Post Thanks / Like
    I would also tend to reiterate what the first 2 posters(and now others) have said

    The program you are on must consider; chronological age, training age, qualification, injury history, training history and present physical capacity(fitness). These considerations are combined with the external load(which you have somewhat outlined) AND the internal load (your physiological and perceptual response). When all things are considered that will determine the training outcome depending on who is doing the programming. I would suggest looking also closely at exercise selection.(muscle snatch????)

    Measure you HR after a strenuous OL complex set, see how long it takes to return somewhat to normal.

    One might deduce that brownbear1968 is 50 yrs old, he might be a big guy . In OL not only are you moving the mass of the BB but moving your own body mass …not quite the same in PL. The OL programming of supers(Soviet literature) is a little different than all other categories…so that should also be in one of the programming considerations mentioned above. In of themselves Intensities of 55% pretty much do nothing

    What is the purpose/goal of your current program??????

    I’d question the program (and underlying training concepts) and your general fitness. Training for fitness AND combining OL and PL with possibly poorly planned recovery isn’t very likely to accomplish much of anything . Mixed method training is generally a poor way to train.

    OL and derivatives vs the PL are not the same. The skills and biomotor abilities are vastly different (or at least they should be); so any program comparison is pointless. You would be comparing apples to oranges. It is somewhat like comparing the load of a 100m sprinter and a 1500m runner based only on meters run/session… nothing about velocity of movement, acceleration, stride length, ground contact time, power output, rest intervals, distances covered per set, ect. You must compare OL program to OL program as a 100m program is compared to a 100m program.

    I hadn’t read your followups brownbear, good luck.

  15. Likes brownbear1968, matej.polak liked this post
  16. #10
    Member Judas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    1,690
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by brownbear1968 View Post
    I will confess another point that I didn´t mention:

    I began to feel such stress in my wl training sessions after my coach developed a high volume/high repetions program.

    An example: there is a complex which it is composed of muscle snatch + snatch + snatch balance + over-the-head squat. I have to perform THREE SETS of FOUR reps (each rep is composed of the four movements) at 50% and, after this, THREE SETS of THREE reps at 60%. This is a near-death experience, for me. But the program has other exercises on the same day. This is close to a Cross Fit WOD... lol.

    I was used to work with triples, doubles, and singles. That´s it. After one set... take the towel, water, look sideways, adjust the music depending on the percentage of the load, look to the bar, walks to the bar, prepare mindset, and lift. Well, I am 50 yo and I am strugling against some stuff (type 2 diab, obesity, etc).
    This slow-and-easy training allows me, at low carb or not, to deal with my usual percentages without near-death feelings.
    I strongly suspect that the main problem is the prescribed high-rep/high volume program combined with the low-carb. With a low-rep/high volume I can go up to a two hour session training.
    I looked for a coach just to find a better techinical quality of my lifts. But, to find someone to give tips about my lifts I can use this kind forum on the evaluation technique thread.
    I dont know what your level is, so i'll ask you this. This complex (for instance), is it contributing? to your weightlifting progress? Was it assigned specifically to YOU to address YOUR weaknesses and needs for this discipline? I'll venture a guess and say no.

    I dont even like set programs in powerlifting... and powerlifting is a lot harder to fuck up than weightlifting (ie: you can go a lot farther with shit form in PL... not recommended, but you can). Genetics also counts for more in powerlifting. I honestly dont think any programming where you're counting reps and tonnages has any place for anything less than a consistently coached (by a GOOD coach) advanced level weightlifter. If you MUST do the cookie cutter, then at least scale the % until you leave it feeling good. This is not 80's Bulgaria... there should be no "near-death feelings". If you can execute each competition lift with your absolute perfect form, as a beginner, its probably too heavy. Hell, as a PL coach, i even adhere to this idea in that.

  17. Likes brownbear1968 liked this post

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •