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Thread: Replacing pulls with powers

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    Replacing pulls with powers

    In Roman’s book, and also mentioned in an article by Charniga, Roman says that beginners and intermediates (class III - I) should not do pulls and should rather put that volume towards doing more power snatches and power cleans. Has anyone tried this? Does anyone agree with this (for beginners and intermediates)? Thoughts?

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    I would think this would be better advice for intermediates and advanced lifters. Most beginners, as far as I'm aware, struggle to differentiate between a power lift and a full lift and catch almost everything they do high. Engraining the habit of more high lifts would just make it more difficult for them, as I've seen even intermediate-advanced lifters struggle to get back into the groove of a full lift after running powers for an extended period.

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    I'm well aware of that from ToW.

    Here's the thing, in Russia way back when, I would surmise even the beginners had much more solid technique than they do here in the US. Same goes for China and elsewhere. So there probably wasn't issues for lifters moving under the bar and catching high because of shitty mobility or fear or just poor technique in general.

    I generally think that while Powers produce high power outputs compared to pulls, pulls can be used as extra positional work or cues for beginners and intermediate lifters. Besides in complexes.

    Beginner and intermediates can probably benefit from doing more classic variants of the lifts as backoff instead of just powers.

    So let's say a beginner works up to a triple at 70 for a hang snatch from the knee. 40-45-50-55-60-65-70. Then maybe going back to 50-60 for a few more sets may be more beneficial imo than doing extensions or high pulls for 3-4 sets of 3-4 reps.

    As has only been shown, very often pulls move slower than actual classic or variants of lifts. Wil Fleming played around with this. And this is why doing pulls over 100% of 1rm can get dicey. A pull might reach the same bar height as a typical snatch or clean will, but it moves slower from the hip to sternum/navel.

    It would be real interesting seeing what some of the chinese or other asians (not ham and eggers or amateur lifters) do their speed pulls/panda pulls at. I feel that when I do extensions or high pulls sometimes, they just don't move at the same speed as my actual lifts. Sometimes, it's just because I'm gassed.

    Whereas speed pulls, the whole idea is to move them fast AF.

    For a lifter who knows how to move under the bar, doing pulls isn't a bad idea. For a lifter that doesn't, that would be silly (aka me a few years back). There was a cycle in 2015 that had a lot of powers and this brought my PSN and PC very close to my 1rm Sn and Cn but didn't really push my 1rm Sn and Cn. At the end of the cycle I PSn 82 and narrowly missed a 83 and 84 PSn out front a little. I want to say I sn 87 or 88. PC 95 (didn't really have any PC or PSN 1rms before that cycle) and I don't think my CJ was much more than 100 at the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie View Post
    In Roman’s book, and also mentioned in an article by Charniga, Roman says that beginners and intermediates (class III - I) should not do pulls and should rather put that volume towards doing more power snatches and power cleans. Has anyone tried this? Does anyone agree with this (for beginners and intermediates)? Thoughts?
    Yes I tried this. Actually my last mesocycle I was doing snatch pulls and no power snatches in snatch assistance. And power cleans/no clean pulls in clean assistance just to compare pulls/powers. And to my surprise Roman is right in his book when he says beginners should not do pulls and do powers instead. This saturday I maxed out, the results was 47,5kg in snatch, 86% of my pr at 55kg. While in the C&J I lifted 70kg, 97% of my pr at 72kg. This was after a month only hitting 70-75% in the classics as Roman says beginners should do in the preb. cycle.

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    Rob Macklem cites several Soviet studies pointing out that pulls are contraindicating towards the solidification of technique in younger athletes and even at the advanced stages. Below are the two posts cited:

    http://wlforums.com/forums/showthrea...ll=1#post66282
    http://wlforums.com/forums/showthrea...ll=1#post66204

    In my experience pulls would be better replaced with moderate deadlifts (80-110% of classic lift). Powers are better suited because athletes are at least still practicing changing directions. Too many pulls I have noticed beginners get in the habit of overpulling the barbell/staying in extension too long each time. They have difficulty differentiating letting the barbell float up vs attempting to pull the barbell as high as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by b_degennaro View Post
    Rob Macklem cites several Soviet studies pointing out that pulls are contraindicating towards the solidification of technique in younger athletes and even at the advanced stages. Below are the two posts cited:

    http://wlforums.com/forums/showthrea...ll=1#post66282
    http://wlforums.com/forums/showthrea...ll=1#post66204

    In my experience pulls would be better replaced with moderate deadlifts (80-110% of classic lift). Powers are better suited because athletes are at least still practicing changing directions. Too many pulls I have noticed beginners get in the habit of overpulling the barbell/staying in extension too long each time. They have difficulty differentiating letting the barbell float up vs attempting to pull the barbell as high as possible.
    So, in your opinion, it would be better to replace pulls with deadlifts instead of powers for beginners and intermediates?

    Would you programme the same amount of volume for deadlifts as you would for pulls, or more, or less? Also, would you do both clean and snatch deadlifts or just focus on one?

    Also, sorry if this is a dumb question, should you not pull the bar as high as possible when doing pulls?

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    It just feels so sacrilegious to cut pulls. I guess it can't hurt to try it out for a cycle (month) or two...but I don't want to slow down my rate of improvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie View Post
    It just feels so sacrilegious to cut pulls. I guess it can't hurt to try it out for a cycle (month) or two...but I don't want to slow down my rate of improvement.
    To paraphrase Charniga I think, is the only reason you are doing pulls is because of tradition or because they truly are effective?

    I have seen no difference replacing pulls (keeping volume same and using all varieties) with deadlifts at the beginner/intermediate stage or even my stage of lifting. Again, not super heavy, usually between 90-110% of best lift on average.

    I would never try to pull the barbell high when performing pulls. I would allow the barbell to float to the position solely on leg drive, even deadlifting (Lasha doing pulls for example). Deliberately pulling on the barbell after leg extension is fruitless and ingrains poor habits (which Soviets, Rob, and myself allude to).

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    Quote Originally Posted by b_degennaro View Post
    To paraphrase Charniga I think, is the only reason you are doing pulls is because of tradition or because they truly are effective?

    I have seen no difference replacing pulls (keeping volume same and using all varieties) with deadlifts at the beginner/intermediate stage or even my stage of lifting. Again, not super heavy, usually between 90-110% of best lift on average.

    I would never try to pull the barbell high when performing pulls. I would allow the barbell to float to the position solely on leg drive, even deadlifting (Lasha doing pulls for example). Deliberately pulling on the barbell after leg extension is fruitless and ingrains poor habits (which Soviets, Rob, and myself allude to).
    If you have not seen any difference with replacing them, why do you replace them?

    I've always pulled as high as possible...I guess it's time to rethink that. Thanks!

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    I should’ve clarified I have not seen any negative differences. Only reason to keep them in (when done correctly) is to help overload the pull for specific phases, to condition lifters to snatching and cleaning 90%+ weights more often.

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