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Thread: Training new supers particularly barpath

  1. #1
    Member Blairbob's Avatar
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    Training new supers particularly barpath

    So I have a new super, young female somewhere between 5'10 and 6. About to turn 15. She learned how to lift either at a CF or her local HS (Football/throws) coach. Jerk is alright, has some problems but is better than her Snatch or Clean which before she could Power more than she could do the full lift. While she can pull 138, her BS is just 91 and FS 75 (these squats are quite a bit below BW). Did 50/70 Powers locally a few months ago.

    She's obviously tall as her dad is 6'4 and does StrongMan. A lot of the family were quite overweight at one point (except another older sister who played soccer). Family got into CF, dieting, lost a shitton of weight and are still on their dieting journey (though I think Dad is pretty where he wants or needs to be).

    She's currently in season throwing and trains WL after which is something of an obstacle but is what it is. Her caloric deficit probably doesn't help but she eats before throwing and and a snack/shake before WL. She training 3d/week which is just fine now because she has a hell of a commute.

    I/We are focusing a lot on our OH strength and mobility because it's poor. At school, they squat or bench, sometimes do the lifts as well besides conditioning stuff and abs. It's pretty random but generally squat and pull 2-3x/week, maybe bench once and they tend to do lots of lunges, farmer carries, etc.

    I/We are focusing a lot on our OH strength and mobility because it's poor. She doesn't have an easy time descending to the bottom of a Snatch on Snatch Balance or OHS and they same goes for Snatching. I wonder if it's because the weight on the bar is so much less compared to her mass.

    Seemingly it will get better when a bit more weight is loaded and then of course, it turns into a shitshow because she just bangs the holy hell out of the bar with the bar going forward and being impossible to squat under so she has to catch in a power with a lot of torso lean.

    We started with high/tall hang snatches but while she isn't as rotund as some American female SHW, she still seems to have move the bar forward a bit. This is less of a problem if we work above or below the knee. It's not so much of an issue on the Clean but she has the same habit as the snatch that she will just try to bang the shit out of it if it feels very heavy. She will also rip it off the floor which makes sense since she can DL 138.

    When she started her Cn was 61.5/#135. We've pushed it a bit to 65 and that's only after starting off with triples then doubles so a lot of reps. She also has a hard time bouncing out of the hole on the clean which I wonder if it has something to do with the extra mass as a SHW.

    According to Nutrishops test, she has #161.8 of LBM. It's some kind of machine so isn't water, bodpod or DEXA. Ideally I think now is a good time to lean out when she really hasn't gotten into throwing far or heavy weights on the bar. And it would probably be good for a whole bunch of other things like general health, self-image, hormonal profile blah blah blah.

    TLDR: WTF or how do I deal with bar path issues with Supers?

    Tony should know this but I don't even if I'm a chubby runt even at 73. I went back and watched a bunch of male and female supers of course. And I'm sure if she lost a considerable amount of more mass, that would also change her bar path and technique.

    While I do have some video, I don't feel like posting it publicly because I don't have her parents permission (they'd probably let me as I get along with them well now) and she's a minor. I suppose we'll eventually post her on our gyms IG though. I might be ok with sharing it with you, Tony.

  2. #2
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    Based on what you have posted, it might be the case that she lacks the positional strength to pass through the positions consistent for a more efficient bar path than just being too big and carrying excessive bulk. If a person has poor muscle snatch ability, internal shoulder rotation would be a something I would want to look at.

    The other big problem which you only alluded to, but might be present and be a future problem, is the tempo and rhythm of her lifts. 'banging the shit out of it' can stop a lot of progress in other areas. To go with my first point, I would try to develop a really good no contact snatch and make that a priority.

    I'd probably approach it in a couple of ways.....

    Squatting, Pulling, Overhead fixation...... every training session would include 2 of these 3 general components.

    SQUATTING

    Goal: to master the front squat and overhead squat.
    Methods: Goblet squatting, hip and ankle mobility warm ups, quadruped hip glides, paused squats, Backsquat, Front squat.

    PULLING

    Goal: Position consistency, tempo and rhythm efficiency.
    Methods: Halting reps (at knee, at hip), Reps from blocks, No-contact snatches.

    OVERHEAD FIXATION

    Goal: Improved mobility.
    Methods: scapular primers, paused reps, behind the neck reps., internal rotation focus.


    It would probably be a case that the full lifts are absent for some time while the 3 phases are slowly brought together in isolation.

  3. #3
    Member Blairbob's Avatar
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    Thanks!

    I did notice tonight she does that lat row thing where she rows the bar early and ahead of her torso becoming more upright after the bar is past the knee. This leads to the bar being in the hip or high thigh before the torso is vertical and thus banging it out.

    Ive had her doing Dan Bells "shift and stand". Sometimes before or in between sets. Im probably going to have to do it more with slow motion stick or light bar (5kg) snatches.

    Its less of an issue on the clean, especially muscle or no hip clean but I think as it gets heavy she may go back to the early row and power it.

    As it stands now, her PSn and PC are still ahead of her "Squat" Snatch/Clean by 5kg+.

    I did try to let her take it heavy playing with multiple pulls, DL, "shift and stand" 3-10x to prefatigue her but she can still lat row it in or just ends up banging it out and not having the strength to pull it back in a power snatch.

    We are barely into full lifts tbh. The closest is something like no contact snatches (muscle then power then full) or cleans with a segmented pause for a moment past the knee or mid thigh. I let her do a soft max after reps her first day as a trial to see where she was.

    We have been doing quite a bit of no contact snatches and I generally like what I see from her when she does them as she can't lat row the bar in and bang the F out of it.

    Besides that I generally have been focusing on FS and OHS and snatch balances. I don't think Ive worked BS with her in this week 3 or 4 now.

    She can internally and externally rotate in muscle snatches just fine.

    Since we've been introducing her to hook grip just in the past few weeks, Ive been having her do segmented DL with pauses at positions. Above the floor, below and above knee, mid thigh and pocket/power position. Her thumbs have not been happy and they cause her pain of course.

    I did think she has yet to do any snatches with hook.

    Usually her sessions are Sn or CJ and one day we do a bit of both. Id prefer if she came MWF but she tends to have TnF meets on Wed and Sat so far so MTuTh or TuThF.

    On the CJ days, I have her do bar work with the Snatch and on Snatch days, she may do some jerk work with the bar or stick after. Generally I have her work OHS or Snatch balances after Snatching on Sn days.

    I may play with having her do OHS or Sn balancing to warm up. Maybe that will prefatigue her shoulders a bit to combat the early row.

    Its my opinion that she really doesnt need to work on lifts from the floor until her issues past the knee and under the bar are solved. I have her focus a bit on her positions as she pulls the bar from the floor into the hang or as positional DL.

    While a local meet is coming up and youth nationals at the end of June (undecided as of yet though shes qualified), I'm not too worried about full lifts. Better to rework her base technique before it gets set in stone. Especially as is only a frosh and is hoping to see about NMU after HS.

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    I do not know if you'd want to teach this, but some supers pull with their hips lower. This puts the shoulders over the bar, rather than slightly in front, and the torso slightly behind the bar, out of the way. Better than average leg strength is needed to pull this off.

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    Sounds like you at least have a plan Blairbob. Supers can take time to bloom, but you'll never regret the time spent on technical work later on. The only other thing I might suggest is maybe consider approaching technical work like a cluster set arrangement and do things on a clock. Improving work capacity while you train sub maximally can be a create way to economize time and keep the mind alert.

    Best wishes to you and your lifter.

  6. #6
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    Mike, I have been trying to cue and show her how to layback but it hasnt really clicked.

    I'll keep the idea of being on top or behind the bar an option. As for leg strength, its not there as sometimes she had a hard time standing up 70 for a clean after missing the recovery on 69x2 (she trained Sn and OHS yesterday besides throwing disc tday and of course she is on a 300-400 cal deficit). Her best FS is 75 and BS 91 though those are numbers she came in with. Both are less than BW.

    There is a lot of work ahead of course.

    Seeing as she is a frosh, she really doesnt need to be showing off numbers until her jr year or so which is a year and a half away or more. Itd be great for her to improve locally or at youth meets of course.

    Ive been told a lot of colleges look for their lifters to be able to make Uni Nationals besides Jr or Sr nationals though there are only a handful of Supers at those levels in college.

    I have no idea what she will get down to thru dieting but for example, shes a size 13 mens shoe and her dad is a 15. I keep forgetting to check her height and I dont recall if her growth plates have fused yet.

    I mean if might be possible for her to be an 87 like AliAnn but in all likelihood, I cant see her ever being less than 90 unless she took up running. Especially if she ends up near 6'.

  7. #7
    Member Blairbob's Avatar
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    Hawk, I do try to not let her take too long of rests but haven't done EMOMs with her. We cluster some reps. Fatigue can be an issue sometimes because she is on a cal deficit besides always having thrown at school b4 training and throwing and weight/core training on her off days. Things will get different in June when TnF is over.

    I'm a bit focused on technique atm though I just started wondering if maybe I should be also trying to do some other GPP work seeing as we have KB, stones, sleds, farmer handles, rowers, etc.

    Because we have yet to work on any kind of horizontal row work or unilateral pressing/rowing.

    Id like to see her to do more upper body work though I know she benches in HS on her off days sometimes. We've done a bit of pushpresses to work on the dip of the jerk besides SnPP+OHS/Sn balance and presses in split to try to adjust her split length as it's a bit more shallow rn. Her elbows tend to drop in the rack position on the dip and Im thinking upper back strength may be lacking.

    And of course accessories like core work, planks, back ext, etc. She does some of that on her off days in HS.

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    In case you haven't seen it, there's an article on bodyweight scaling in super-heavyweight weightlifters in journal 11 of the EWF scientific magazine.

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