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Thread: Adults should not do weightlifting, says Functional Training Guru Michael Boyle

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachd50 View Post
    I can't speak directly to these "swinging cheat curls" as I have never seen him discuss those. I have seen video of him teaching power cleans from the high hang and hang and referencing Glenn Pendlay in the instruction.

    Also, I have only seen him teaching split squats/ rear elevated split squats going down to a front leg parallel position. Not partial range of motion versions of that exercise.

    Are you saying that he is advocating that all athletes use wedge boards, or just the athletes that are lacking the ankle mobility so that they can perform the exercises until their mobility catches up?

    Regarding basketball, you don't think the countless hours of jumping, landing, cutting is an example of absorbing, storing and redirecting force? Those injuries are overuse injuries caused from the athletes playing basketball year round from the ages of 8 or 9.

    I understand your (and other's here) points of view considering it is coming from a weightlifting background. I am just saying I could see where S&C coaches who are training large groups of higher level (not high school) athletes might not think Cleans, Jerks and Snatches are worth the squeeze.
    Boyle has posted many videos of his athletes doing these swinging hang cleans. I saw one video where he referenced Glenn Pendlay, but when you see Boyle's athletes lift, they usually start flat footed, push their hips well back, then thrust their hips forward, causing the bar to move slightly above horizontal. Then they loop it back, often performing a Boston Stomp in the process.

    The cover of Boyle's book, "New Functional Training for Sports," shows an athlete doing a split squat and the top of the front leg higher than parallel to the floor. Again, Boyle is anti-back squat.

    In a recent Instagram video (that I can no longer access because he banned me), Boyle advocates doing his goblet squats with the high wedge board to compensate for lack of ankle flexibility. So his approach seems to be one of identifying flexibility issues, then work around them by performing partial range movements with resistance?

    One of the primary causes of overuse injuries is muscle imbalance, which can be caused by emphasizing partial range of motion exercises. It's been found in track and field that runners who do not lift weights are more susceptible to overuse issues, along with other types of injuries. With basketball, not working the limbs through a full range of motion can cause the tendons to lose their elasticity.

    I had this "worth the squeeze" argument with one Division I strength coach who told me he didn't have time to teach his athletes the full clean. This is in spite of seeing many of his future athletes at their high school training camps, having a year of red shirting, and then four more years of training. So five years, and then some, is not enough time to teach a clean? Seriously?

  2. #52
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    Again, this seems a matter ov 'well, if i dont know how to teach it, then its not worth doing'. Typical school-trained PT weakness. I dont think that anyone competent enough to coach an athlete to do the lifts properly in a reasonable amount ov time would ever say they are not worth it. Now... if you're training 20+ athletes at a time, well... thats a different story. I've never done large groups, nor have ever had to desire to. I like one on one, or small groups, and keep the quality high. This very thing is another reason why Crossfit fails in what should be the most important thing they do.

  3. #53
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    I find it interesting that one of the main thought process being shown in this thread (if the athletes would just weightlift then they would be even BETTER at their sports) is the exact same thought process used by Rippetoe and his disciples (if weightlifters would just low bar back squat and get stronger, they would be even BETTER).
    If I remember correctly (and I had a helluva time googling and finding the study) there is a drastic decrease of injuries as athlete squat 2xBW. As well, that's about the point of diminishing returns for ball/field athletes compared to strength athletes (otoh, it seems there is one coach Ryan Flaherty that states a 100kg athlete needs to 1/4sq 3.2xBW or trapbar DL the same to run a 4.5s 40. It all gets back to ground force production).

    It was sometime this spring that the gen pop fitness class had snatches in their workouts and a bunch of them wanted to learn so I brought them over to the platforms. This with having quite a few beginning WLers to boot including 1 completely new first day guy. Another guy less than a month in and I think he brought his gf. One teen a month or two in at the club but had been doing the lifts at a CF for a few years (and gotten some really bad habits). Heck, for some reason I think I was trying to fit in some lifts before the gen pop needed help besides my WLers. My session pretty much ended as I just couldn't do it all.

    In retrospect, I should have just had the gen pop fitnessers do DB or KB Snatches and have made my life wayyyy easier. That was a near a dozen ppl maybe 10? Good luck if that would have been 20 or 40 athletes (there was a shitton of kids who came in for Volleyball, Soccer, or Basketball at the Juco I was at). I had a hard time keeping track of my WLers attempts and what to call for their next attempts (as they were all pretty new and wouldn't have had a clue). It wasn't quite a shitshow or clusterfuck but I definitely remember being all over the place.

    Remember all that Verkhovshansky plyometric work? 2xBW BS or go home. Maybe I saw 1.5xBW as well.

    Oleg Kosyak, the Olympian I coached with was very into Verkhovshansky and Bondarchuk's work. I remember him handing me an article on high stepups but I don't remember us having the girls do them much at all. Some lower stepups I think mixed in.

    For his (female) gymnasts, his favorites were the squat, barbell squat jump up to a mat or up and down, and pushpress or benchpress (we never did it at that gym though he talked about using it in the past with some girls. I think we just didn't have a setup for benching so we did PP). These helped with bars, presshandstands, and tumbling/vaulting and 3/4 events besides corestrength.

    Besides that, we used(weighted) rope climbs or L-pullups, leglifts, and press handstands. And a bit of plyos. While he was intrigued and familiar to some degree with the Olympic lifts, equipment was limited besides time. I think we only had 2 or 3 straight bars with plates.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by celicaxx View Post
    I don't think so. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I don't feel I have it? I have fallen arches, but that seems about it. With my fallen arches I'm actually uncomfortable wearing any sort of padded sole shoe, I pretty much need to wear canvas flats or hard soled boots. I do apparently as well have a short leg by I think 4-5mm according to a chiropractor. One thing I didn't think of a lot was actually my Achilles are super tight and probably just short. I recently got about 1cm of heel added to my lifting shoes and it helped my lifts a lot. Kinda compounding it is being longer femured and armed, so it's a perfect storm of negative traits for Olympic lifting and good traits for every other sport (too bad my parents stopped all athletic stuff after elementary school and fed me junk food and frozen TV dinners and pizza after that... :/ :/ )

    Actually being honest, flexibility might be the only thing I'm naturally somewhat gifted at, I guess lower body strength partially (pulled 265lbs on the deadlift at 180 first day in the gym with no prior barbell training...) Out of the high school fitness tests, I was one of the few males that passed a toe touch test, actually exceeding it by an inch or two. Not that it comes easy or there's not people better than me, but out of males I've met in high level, even elite athletics, including my own sport, I've done really well in that area, especially with no childhood real training/building up in it. I met other guys in my sport with a significantly higher training level than me with a lot worse flexibility. (You know my sport...)

    Obviously the internet skews our expectations some, though. I did train stretching harder than probably most people, I'd do static stretches for 120 seconds or 180 seconds at a time per stretch, and wake up feeling sorer than lifting sometimes. With that it's kind of chicken or egg, I believe myself to have lower than average upper body strength, but then because of that I didn't train it as much for a lot of years, figuring what's the use, etc, etc, but then starting training it actually got it better and more competent, though perhaps it took more time to progress than X other person. With stretching maybe I had no comparison/expectation, so it was a positive reenforcement feedback loop or something.
    A short leg is rare -- often a rotation of the spine can give the illusion of a short leg. As for your foot arches, the technical name for fallen arches is valgus, and the degree the arches fall is based on a scale of one to three. Level 3 would fulfill the definition of flat feet. There are ways to correct flat feet, such as by strengthening the extensor hallucis longs, a muscle that lifts the big toe and creates lateral tension on the foot.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Goss View Post
    Boyle has posted many videos of his athletes doing these swinging hang cleans. I saw one video where he referenced Glenn Pendlay, but when you see Boyle's athletes lift, they usually start flat footed, push their hips well back, then thrust their hips forward, causing the bar to move slightly above horizontal. Then they loop it back, often performing a Boston Stomp in the process.

    The cover of Boyle's book, "New Functional Training for Sports," shows an athlete doing a split squat and the top of the front leg higher than parallel to the floor. Again, Boyle is anti-back squat.

    In a recent Instagram video (that I can no longer access because he banned me), Boyle advocates doing his goblet squats with the high wedge board to compensate for lack of ankle flexibility. So his approach seems to be one of identifying flexibility issues, then work around them by performing partial range movements with resistance?

    One of the primary causes of overuse injuries is muscle imbalance, which can be caused by emphasizing partial range of motion exercises. It's been found in track and field that runners who do not lift weights are more susceptible to overuse issues, along with other types of injuries. With basketball, not working the limbs through a full range of motion can cause the tendons to lose their elasticity.

    I had this "worth the squeeze" argument with one Division I strength coach who told me he didn't have time to teach his athletes the full clean. This is in spite of seeing many of his future athletes at their high school training camps, having a year of red shirting, and then four more years of training. So five years, and then some, is not enough time to teach a clean? Seriously?
    Boyle

    Pendlay

    Again, if you have other info that would be interesting to see. And I don't necessarily agree with Boyle, but I do recognize that just like Coach DeBerry had different opinions and philosophies than say Bobby Bowden, they both would be considered successful.

    I just wanted to point out that in this thread, your mindset (an understandable one given your background and current position) -- "Professional S&C coaches should all program back squats and Olympic lifts regardless of their population and circumstances because it will make all of their athletes better" is the same one Rippetoe uses towards weightlifters "weightlifters should all low bar back squat because it increases their strength and that will make them better lifters".

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachd50 View Post
    Boyle

    Pendlay

    Again, if you have other info that would be interesting to see. And I don't necessarily agree with Boyle, but I do recognize that just like Coach DeBerry had different opinions and philosophies than say Bobby Bowden, they both would be considered successful.

    I just wanted to point out that in this thread, your mindset (an understandable one given your background and current position) -- "Professional S&C coaches should all program back squats and Olympic lifts regardless of their population and circumstances because it will make all of their athletes better" is the same one Rippetoe uses towards weightlifters "weightlifters should all low bar back squat because it increases their strength and that will make them better lifters".
    I never said this quote, "Professional S&C coaches should all program back squats and Olympic lifts regardless of their population and circumstances because it will make all of their athletes better." That is an absurd comment. Near my desk I have a filing cabinet with the workouts of the last 150 athletes I personally trained, and some did not do the Olympic lifts or back squats because of special circumstances. Again, I never said that quote.

    My issue is when Boyle makes dogmatic statements about how his partial-range split squats are superior to back squats, or that his bizarre variations of the hang clean (performed with straps in one of his teaching videos) and the hang power snatch (performed with a jerk grip, and even on just one leg), provide the same benefits as the full lifts. I should also mention that I met Angel Spassov back in the 80s when he visited me at the Air Force Academy, and the Bulgarian split squat he showed me and my athletes was much different than what Boyle teaches. I actually wrote about the method Boyle teaches in an international figure skating magazine 26 years ago, explaining how the higher rear foot position would be sport specific to movements in ice dancing.

    I was doing that reverse teaching method over 15 years ago, and somewhere in my files I have a video of me using it with one of my athletes -- I thought the Russians came up with it? Maybe Glenn popularized it? That said, if you watch the videos he posted on Instagram, you'll see many of Boyle's athletes moving their shoulders well in front of the bar as they lower it, shooting their hips well back, and then swinging it in a big loop (again, often with the Boston stomp).

    Boyle can train his athletes any way he wants. My issue is that when he comes out on social media and starts criticizing other coaches for teaching the weightlifting movements the way they were intended to be taught, then he should expect some backlash.
    Last edited by Kim Goss; 07-09-2019 at 03:13 PM.

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  8. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Goss View Post
    I never said this quote, "Professional S&C coaches should all program back squats and Olympic lifts regardless of their population and circumstances because it will make all of their athletes better." That is an absurd comment. Near my desk I have a filing cabinet with the workouts of the last 150 athletes I personally trained, and some did not do the Olympic lifts or back squats because of special circumstances. Again, I never said that quote.

    My issue is when Boyle makes dogmatic statements about how his partial-range split squats are superior to back squats, or that his bizarre variations of the hang clean (performed with straps in one of his teaching videos) and the hang power snatch (performed with a jerk grip, and even on just one leg), provide the same benefits as the full lifts. I should also mention that I met Angel Spassov back in the 80s when he visited me at the Air Force Academy, and the Bulgarian split squat he showed me and my athletes was much different than what Boyle teaches. I actually wrote about the method Boyle teaches in an international figure skating magazine 26 years ago, explaining how the higher rear foot position would be sport specific to movements in ice dancing.

    I was doing that reverse teaching method over 15 years ago, and somewhere in my files I have a video of me using it with one of my athletes -- I thought the Russians came up with it? Maybe Glenn popularized it? That said, if you watch his videos he posted on Instagram of his athletes, you'll see many of Boyle's athletes moving their shoulders well in front of the bar as they lower it, shooting their hips well back, and then swinging it in a big loop (again, often with the Boston stomp).

    Boyle can train his athletes any way he wants. My issue is that when he comes out on social media and starts criticizing other coaches for teaching the weightlifting movements the way they were intended to be taught, then he should expect some backlash.
    I don't use instatweeter or any of that stuff, so I haven't seen the videos. I would agree with you however, that just as I have said here that people shouldn't be criticizing him for his thoughts, that he definitely should stay out of other's backyards as well.

    What is he claiming are the benefits? I would agree with you that it would be horse poop if someone said "doing a one legged stiff legged dead lift is the same as a traditional deadlift". But saying "I can get what I want for my athletes by doing a one legged stiff legged dead as opposed to a traditional dead" is different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coachd50 View Post
    I don't use instatweeter or any of that stuff, so I haven't seen the videos. I would agree with you however, that just as I have said here that people shouldn't be criticizing him for his thoughts, that he definitely should stay out of other's backyards as well.

    What is he claiming are the benefits? I would agree with you that it would be horse poop if someone said "doing a one legged stiff legged dead lift is the same as a traditional deadlift". But saying "I can get what I want for my athletes by doing a one legged stiff legged dead as opposed to a traditional dead" is different.
    I saw a video of Boyle promoting the single-leg deadlift over the conventional deadlift. Anyway, Boyle has established himself as (at least) a limited purpose public figure, and should expect public criticism when he promotes his controversial ideas. Let me give you one example.

    In his 2004 book on functional training, Boyle says you should only perform weightlifting exercises from the hand and warns us not to follow the advice of the "...so called experts who tell you that you must clean from the floor." For more on this nonsense, I recommend Bud Charniga's review of Boyle's "Functional Training in Sports," which Bud published in 2014.

    Most coaches would leave Boyle alone if he didn't come out criticizing the methods of other coaches using traditional training methods. In fact, I would think that the Crossfit community is not fond of Boyle's comments that adults should never do weightlifting movements?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Goss View Post
    I saw a video of Boyle promoting the single-leg deadlift over the conventional deadlift. Anyway, Boyle has established himself as (at least) a limited purpose public figure, and should expect public criticism when he promotes his controversial ideas. Let me give you one example.

    In his 2004 book on functional training, Boyle says you should only perform weightlifting exercises from the hand and warns us not to follow the advice of the "...so called experts who tell you that you must clean from the floor." For more on this nonsense, I recommend Bud Charniga's review of Boyle's "Functional Training in Sports," which Bud published in 2014.

    Most coaches would leave Boyle alone if he didn't come out criticizing the methods of other coaches using traditional training methods. In fact, I would think that the Crossfit community is not fond of Boyle's comments that adults should never do weightlifting movements?
    Well, I bet a whole bunch of Orthopedic surgeons and Physical Therapists with Lexus and Mercedes payments would not be fond of Boyle suggesting that Crossfit not have adults snatch, clean and jerk

    there is what I like to call “heavy implement power.” If you truly want to be powerful, you also need to Olympic lift. We never Olympic lift from the floor, but I love hang cleans and hang snatches. I think those that don’t use Olympic lifts are missing the boat. Show me a coach that doesn’t like Olympic lifts and chances are I’ll show you an ex-powerlifter who never bothered to learn the Olympic lifts. Instead of learning the lifts, these guys (and, in some cases, women) instead default to the idea that the Olympic lifts aren’t necessary, or even worse yet, aren’t safe. I can’t stand when people tell you that something that they can’t do and have never tried is bad for you.
    This is a quote from an interview with Boyle. Not sure of the date but the only comment is dated 2018. Based on the article, I would say it was written within at least the last 4 years. Are you saying he has changed a bunch from that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by coachd50 View Post
    Well, I bet a whole bunch of Orthopedic surgeons and Physical Therapists with Lexus and Mercedes payments would not be fond of Boyle suggesting that Crossfit not have adults snatch, clean and jerk


    This is a quote from an interview with Boyle. Not sure of the date but the only comment is dated 2018. Based on the article, I would say it was written within at least the last 4 years. Are you saying he has changed a bunch from that?
    First, many excellent weightlifting coaches work out of Crossfit gyms.

    I've seen many comments on Boyle's social media platforms this year in which he is promoting the same ideas he promoted in his 2004 book. However, now he is more vocal about the superiority of weightlifting movements from the hang and single-leg, partial range split squats.

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