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Thread: Adults should not do weightlifting, says Functional Training Guru Michael Boyle

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by psstein View Post
    It makes sense if you think of his population. Rule 1 for training athletes is "don't hurt them in the weight room." Everything else is a secondary concern.

    Training athletes to squat/clean/SN/whatever properly requires time and technical knowledge that a lot of these guys don't have. It's easier (and safer) to program box jumps, agility drills, and landmine exercises.
    The PT's here are trained to avoid gai- sorry, risk... by avoiding the barbell movements altogether. Lame as that is, its probably a good idea. The people training the trainers dont even know how to show a bench or squat. Its sad. This isn't fucking rocket science.

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  3. #32
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    I find it interesting that one of the main thought process being shown in this thread (if the athletes would just weightlift then they would be even BETTER at their sports) is the exact same thought process used by Rippetoe and his disciples (if weightlifters would just low bar back squat and get stronger, they would be even BETTER).

    As a former division 1 college football coach who now teaches elementary PE and whose interest in weightlifting is based in the S&C aspect as opposed to the sport side, I can definitely see where someone could make an intelligent argument that cleans and snatches might not be the best way to improve their athletes performances. Would I teach weightlifting movements to younger kids and athletes. Yes, and I do currently to some degree. Would I spend time trying to teach Tom Brady or Lebron James how to clean or snatch? Nope. Would I advise my fellow teachers who are trying to improve their overall health a little that the C&J was what they needed? Nope. Would it help them? Sure. Is it the most efficient and best way for them to get what they want? No. Would I want my baseball players doing much barbell overhead work? Nope.

    Just an observation here, but as someone with just a casual interest in weightlifting, I seem to read about a lot of injuries.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachd50 View Post
    I find it interesting that one of the main thought process being shown in this thread (if the athletes would just weightlift then they would be even BETTER at their sports) is the exact same thought process used by Rippetoe and his disciples (if weightlifters would just low bar back squat and get stronger, they would be even BETTER).

    As a former division 1 college football coach who now teaches elementary PE and whose interest in weightlifting is based in the S&C aspect as opposed to the sport side, I can definitely see where someone could make an intelligent argument that cleans and snatches might not be the best way to improve their athletes performances. Would I teach weightlifting movements to younger kids and athletes. Yes, and I do currently to some degree. Would I spend time trying to teach Tom Brady or Lebron James how to clean or snatch? Nope. Would I advise my fellow teachers who are trying to improve their overall health a little that the C&J was what they needed? Nope. Would it help them? Sure. Is it the most efficient and best way for them to get what they want? No. Would I want my baseball players doing much barbell overhead work? Nope.

    Just an observation here, but as someone with just a casual interest in weightlifting, I seem to read about a lot of injuries.
    I think in preparation for a sport, which I used it for, for a lot of years, it's very good if it's scaled well. I think it's good not so much for strength, but in that firstly, the lifts require great flexibility and point out flexibility flaws so you can address them. It's very hard to get far in the lifts without flexibility, though yes, you could develop power from the power variants. So with say, soccer, there's very little in soccer that seems to require great flexibility, so you'd feel neglecting it is OK, as it doesn't seem to impact performance. Whereas WL gives you something where flexibility, static and dynamic, is very important as lifts will either work or not.

    I think as well with weightlifting, though certainly this can be developed heavy plyometrics as well or concurrently, it teaches you to receive ballistic loads safely, of which in sports, you're most likely to be injured by ballistic loading. I knew someone anecdotally that did powerlifting for a lot of years, and didn't get injured in the sport of powerlifting, but doing other sports/activities after. He was super scared of WL as he figured you're ballistically loading the joints, thus you'd destroy them instantly. He also said "the only stretchin' I did was at the bottom of a squat with the weight pushin' me down!" and then years and years of injuries later doing sports like cycling.

    I think yes, loading the lifts to maximum with no regard for any other training is very negative to do, but I actually do think for most people the lifts, even if it's 30-40kg for a long time, could help them out a lot for giving them flexibility and the ability to receive a ballistic load. And I think with less than ideal condition people coming from adulthood, perhaps it might be a better choice to do that vs plyometrics, where their own bodyweight could be too much for their joints with depth jumps/etc.

  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by celicaxx View Post
    I think in preparation for a sport, which I used it for, for a lot of years, it's very good if it's scaled well. I think it's good not so much for strength, but in that firstly, the lifts require great flexibility and point out flexibility flaws so you can address them. It's very hard to get far in the lifts without flexibility, though yes, you could develop power from the power variants. So with say, soccer, there's very little in soccer that seems to require great flexibility, so you'd feel neglecting it is OK, as it doesn't seem to impact performance. Whereas WL gives you something where flexibility, static and dynamic, is very important as lifts will either work or not.

    I think as well with weightlifting, though certainly this can be developed heavy plyometrics as well or concurrently, it teaches you to receive ballistic loads safely, of which in sports, you're most likely to be injured by ballistic loading. I knew someone anecdotally that did powerlifting for a lot of years, and didn't get injured in the sport of powerlifting, but doing other sports/activities after. He was super scared of WL as he figured you're ballistically loading the joints, thus you'd destroy them instantly. He also said "the only stretchin' I did was at the bottom of a squat with the weight pushin' me down!" and then years and years of injuries later doing sports like cycling.

    I think yes, loading the lifts to maximum with no regard for any other training is very negative to do, but I actually do think for most people the lifts, even if it's 30-40kg for a long time, could help them out a lot for giving them flexibility and the ability to receive a ballistic load. And I think with less than ideal condition people coming from adulthood, perhaps it might be a better choice to do that vs plyometrics, where their own bodyweight could be too much for their joints with depth jumps/etc.
    Starting with your last paragraph, I don't think Boyle (or any other S&C coach for that matter) would advocate for depth jumps or other plyos to be used by a population group they don't feel should be performing cleans or snatches.

    I have heard many echo your sentiments regarding receiving or absorbing force being a positive aspect of using Olympic lifts for training. I have to ask though, isn't the body only learning how to receive in a very specific body position, with a very specific force vector?

    Does weightlifting develop flexibility, or does it just require it? And again, is that flexibility limited to specific ranges of motion?

    I would advocate cleans and maybe snatches for the vast majority of young athletes because I believe they are in need of a general overall S&C program. That said, I can definitely see why someone who is tasked with coaching athletes who are already stand out high level athletes might think there are better uses of training time.

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachd50 View Post
    Starting with your last paragraph, I don't think Boyle (or any other S&C coach for that matter) would advocate for depth jumps or other plyos to be used by a population group they don't feel should be performing cleans or snatches.

    I have heard many echo your sentiments regarding receiving or absorbing force being a positive aspect of using Olympic lifts for training. I have to ask though, isn't the body only learning how to receive in a very specific body position, with a very specific force vector?

    Does weightlifting develop flexibility, or does it just require it? And again, is that flexibility limited to specific ranges of motion?

    I would advocate cleans and maybe snatches for the vast majority of young athletes because I believe they are in need of a general overall S&C program. That said, I can definitely see why someone who is tasked with coaching athletes who are already stand out high level athletes might think there are better uses of training time.
    It's my personal opinion weight training is to some extent like "Hooked on Phonics" for athletes. My experience to not go too deeply into detail was weight training made me go from a garbage athlete to OK, but very powerful, but still lacking overall sport skill, but with easily enough power for the sport most people with my training time and age never could get to. So yes, if you're dealing with a Lebron James or Michael Jordan, it may not matter, but if you're dealing with someone who is a physical dud it can work, but you still do need the time after the power development to train the sport skill, and essentially you can "coast" on your power development after a certain point. For record, I started with an 18" box jump and went to almost 50" in about 3-4 years, and touching the bottom of the net to touching a basketball rim. I didn't really need big numbers to do this, 1.5x BW squat (long femurs) and 2.5ish x bodyweight deadlift. Not being able to touch toes to front splits. Clean and snatch abysmal, about BW power clean. I'd say the plyo work mattered more than the lifting, but hey.

  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachd50 View Post

    Does weightlifting develop flexibility, or does it just require it? And again, is that flexibility limited to specific ranges of motion?
    I'll just touch on this one, because i dont have time to write a novel.

    Weightlifting (well) requires flexibility, so... if you want to do well, then you need to develop it. Further, if you are lifting under a good coach, they'll see deficiencies in your mobility, and they'll demand you fix them. I dont play any sports these days, but because i've been weightlifting more or less exclusively this last year, and at very least dabbled in it for the previous 10 years, i'm considerably more flexible than the vast majority ov guys my age, ov any build... and i'm 220 and pretty jacked. That was all weightlifting. I made elite in raw powerlifting without ever doing a single stretch. I could walk onto any court or field and probably hold with anyone there, cardio issues aside.

    As for specific ROMs... i dont stretch TO weightlift, i stretch just... everything. I dont even really put much thought into it. All my lower body stretches are TaeKwonDo stretches i learned 30 years ago, and i only do a few ov them. My upper body is limited to dislocates, bar racking and wrist stretches. I'm pretty damn limber and loose overall, save some rather tight adductors, but for me, thats a genetic thing. They've been like that since i was a kid. I can still get within 10" ov the floor on splits though. Not terrible for a 46 year old guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coachd50 View Post
    I find it interesting that one of the main thought process being shown in this thread (if the athletes would just weightlift then they would be even BETTER at their sports) is the exact same thought process used by Rippetoe and his disciples (if weightlifters would just low bar back squat and get stronger, they would be even BETTER).

    As a former division 1 college football coach who now teaches elementary PE and whose interest in weightlifting is based in the S&C aspect as opposed to the sport side, I can definitely see where someone could make an intelligent argument that cleans and snatches might not be the best way to improve their athletes performances. Would I teach weightlifting movements to younger kids and athletes. Yes, and I do currently to some degree. Would I spend time trying to teach Tom Brady or Lebron James how to clean or snatch? Nope. Would I advise my fellow teachers who are trying to improve their overall health a little that the C&J was what they needed? Nope. Would it help them? Sure. Is it the most efficient and best way for them to get what they want? No. Would I want my baseball players doing much barbell overhead work? Nope.

    Just an observation here, but as someone with just a casual interest in weightlifting, I seem to read about a lot of injuries.
    This was well-said. What is missing in Boyle, and some of the responses here, is that like any human-based service, consideration for the individual circumstance is of apex importance.

  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by celicaxx View Post
    It's my personal opinion weight training is to some extent like "Hooked on Phonics" for athletes. My experience to not go too deeply into detail was weight training made me go from a garbage athlete to OK, but very powerful, but still lacking overall sport skill, but with easily enough power for the sport most people with my training time and age never could get to. So yes, if you're dealing with a Lebron James or Michael Jordan, it may not matter, but if you're dealing with someone who is a physical dud it can work, but you still do need the time after the power development to train the sport skill, and essentially you can "coast" on your power development after a certain point. For record, I started with an 18" box jump and went to almost 50" in about 3-4 years, and touching the bottom of the net to touching a basketball rim. I didn't really need big numbers to do this, 1.5x BW squat (long femurs) and 2.5ish x bodyweight deadlift. Not being able to touch toes to front splits. Clean and snatch abysmal, about BW power clean. I'd say the plyo work mattered more than the lifting, but hey.
    Lets be clear about something. I (and Boyle for that matter, which is the topic of this thread) are not saying weight training. I have specifically used weightlifting as the proper name for the activities (and sport) consisting of the Clean and Jerk and Snatch. I hope that wasn't confusing. I will use the more commonly used phrase Olympic lifting in the future to avoid confusion.

    I will be honest as well, I am betting that a big part of Boyle's thoughts were regarding the onslaught of out of shape individuals joining a crossfit "box" (hate that term) to try and look better in a bathing suit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judas View Post
    I'll just touch on this one, because i dont have time to write a novel.

    Weightlifting (well) requires flexibility, so... if you want to do well, then you need to develop it. Further, if you are lifting under a good coach, they'll see deficiencies in your mobility, and they'll demand you fix them. I dont play any sports these days, but because i've been weightlifting more or less exclusively this last year, and at very least dabbled in it for the previous 10 years, i'm considerably more flexible than the vast majority ov guys my age, ov any build... and i'm 220 and pretty jacked. That was all weightlifting. I made elite in raw powerlifting without ever doing a single stretch. I could walk onto any court or field and probably hold with anyone there, cardio issues aside.

    As for specific ROMs... i dont stretch TO weightlift, i stretch just... everything. I dont even really put much thought into it. All my lower body stretches are TaeKwonDo stretches i learned 30 years ago, and i only do a few ov them. My upper body is limited to dislocates, bar racking and wrist stretches. I'm pretty damn limber and loose overall, save some rather tight adductors, but for me, thats a genetic thing. They've been like that since i was a kid. I can still get within 10" ov the floor on splits though. Not terrible for a 46 year old guy.
    Yes, but your post does not fit into the discussion of training say Hockey players (Boyle's specialty), or higher level athletes in general, or just the average adult population looking to be a bit more fit or look better. If any of those population groups worked on flexibility it would improve.

    Your personal anecdote simply shows that participating in SOME activity (weightlifting and stretching) is better than the standard sedentary lifestyle. It does not show it is better than other fitness based activities that those sedentary could be participating in.
    Last edited by coachd50; 07-06-2019 at 11:30 AM.

  12. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachd50 View Post
    Yes, but your post does not fit into the discussion of training say Hockey players (Boyle's specialty), or higher level athletes in general, or just the average adult population looking to be a bit more fit or look better. If any of those population groups worked on flexibility it would improve.

    Your personal anecdote simply shows that participating in SOME activity (weightlifting and stretching) is better than the standard sedentary lifestyle. It does not show it is better than other fitness based activities that those sedentary could be participating in.
    I'm not so sure. I know a lot ov athletes, and have known a lot ov athletes, anywhere from older couch potatoes 'getting back into it' (whatever it may be, typically popular ball sports), to actual college athletes in scholarships for their particular sports. Most do the bare minimum ov mobility and flexibility. The ones involved with sports that dont demand it (depending on who you ask, this is broad), often dont do any mobility work. Weightlifting requires you do it. And barring some gymnast or freak walking in off the street picking up a barbell, everyone is going to need some work. And it doesn't stop once you hit a certain point... the more you train, the more flexible you want to become... really, just like gymnastics i'd imagine. I dont know, and have never known any weightlifters who do not stretch, at least 15-30 minutes a day.

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