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Thread: Compressing the basic Supercompensation program into a 4 week cycle?

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    Compressing the basic Supercompensation program into a 4 week cycle?

    I'm a complete noob when it comes to programming for Weightlifting, and despite reading a bit about it am completely over my head when it comes to reps per week/month, volume, etc. Powerlifting programming was something I found easier to wrap my head around, plus it was very easy to find a good template that was suitable for my time constraints since there's a lower frequency on the big 3. I've been trying to teach myself how to program lately since most of the templates I've found haven't really been something I can fit around my schedule easily. Most of the time my free days are M, Tu, W, F for instance. Knowing how to program for myself would make it much easier for me to continue on enjoying the hobby of Weightlifting.

    I came across a video from Zack Telander about the basic Supercompensation program
    and while it looks promising one of my biggest weaknesses has been confidence with heavy singles, and so I've needed heavy singles in my programming at some point to get through that hurdle. I've done a couple of programs before and still didn't improve that confidence with 90% or more, which is why singles have been a Godsend in a way. Because of that, I looked into compressing the Supercompensation program into a 4 week cycle, where 3's would be done as a light variation at a slightly lower percentage, and Doubles/Singles done for the full competition lifts, with all rep ranges done throughout the week.

    So far here's what I've got sort of figured out..

    Monday:

    Snatch variation (Snatch Pull+Hang Snatch)
    Clean+Jerk (Comp)

    Tuesday:

    Back Squat
    Other general strength stuff

    Wednesday:

    Snatch (Comp)
    Clean+Jerk variation (Clean pull+Clean+Jerk)

    Thursday:
    Rest

    Friday:
    Snatch (singles)
    C&J (Singles)
    Front Squat

    Percentage wise it would look like this:

    Week 1: Variations (60%*3/3), Doubles (75%*2/3), Singles (85%*1/3)
    Week 2: Variations (65%*3/4), Doubles (80%*2/4), Singles (90%*1/4)
    Week 3: Variations (55%*3/2), Doubles (70%*2/2), Singles (80%*1/2)
    Week 4: Variations (70%*3/2), Doubles (90%*2/2), Singles (100%*1/2 or Max on a rare occasion)

    So on a Monday I might do 60%*3/3 on a Snatch variation, followed by 75%*2/3 on C&J's as an example.

    Variations will be something like Clean Pull+Clean+Jerk (2+1+3) or Snatch Pull+Hang Snatch (1+2) or something, with -10% of what's recommended in the video during the phase of triples. For Squat percentages I'll be doing just whatever basic stuff I can do to maintain strength. My squats are high enough that I don't need to worry about hammering them while I attempt to improve efficiency. I'm just trying to get a good amount of frequency going so I can practice more often.

    Few questions that I have though..
    - Is this template going to work or is it a bit dumb and too compressed to be useful?
    - How would you guys program pulls over 4 weeks to fit in with this?
    - What's the general rule of thumb when programming mini-complexes like Pulls+Lifts in terms of percentages and volume?

    Thanks
    Last edited by Macca; 06-25-2019 at 04:24 AM.

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    Welcome Macca, the video is not a bad place to start.

    A few things that stand out in your programming:
    1. You have your moderate intensity snatching day right after your squat day. If you plan on squatting hard (not to mention pressing or rowing), then your snatches might end up being a little crappy.
    2. The volume/intensity doesn't look good. Look at Prilepin's chart http://70sbig.com/blog/2012/05/prilepins-chart/ You can see that your loading week (week 2) is only half the volume of what should be a normal training session. Now the chart isn't perfect for everyone, but you can see what you are planning is way low.
    3. Your performance week seems aggressive on intensity. I would recommend something like 85%x2x4 and 95%x1x3. If 95% really moves easy, then you can add some weight.

    On percentage-based programming, it is important not to get too rigid with the weight on the bar. Feel free to adjust the weight a few kilos if things don't feel right. Also you don't need to add 5% to everything the next month. If the previous 4 weeks goes well, just add 2kg or 5lbs and run through it again.

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    1. I agree with with Matt's above point #1. Kinda depends how old you are, what you lift now and what kind of sets and reps you hit for strength work if you plan on snatching the next day. Shouldn't really matter that much for 60-75% but 80, particularly 85 and above might be meh to a shitshow. Especially in weak 4.

    2. Pulls depends on what sort of lifter you are now. I also view them as intermediate hamstring and back strength work because I feel that way after them the next day. You might not really need pulls if you are a beginner to intermediate lifter. This week I'm going to end up doing pulls M&W because going 3 days in a row isn't gonna happen because I still felt beat yesterday to perform what would be my day 2 (jerks/pp).

    It's been well documented that if you are a beginning lifter, you could just do powers and get an appreciable training effect. I have had a few of my newer lifters just work backoff lifts instead of powers or pulls. If their technique was fine, powers. If it wasn't, lighter % lifts so long as they weren't too tired. Depending on time and energy, I might have a beginner to intermediate level lifter just work positional deadlifts (maybe with pauses) instead of pulls off their 1rm in the usual ranges (85-110/120%).

    3. I've never really seen any hard rules about complexes. I suppose you could look up what Pendlay and Mash use for them but I don't believe any nations outside the US really used them as a standardized part of their training. I sort of think of a pull before a lift as not quite a second rep to count it as a double but like a half rep. So pull from floor+pull from hang and lift from hang is a hard double.

    Is there a particular reason you are compressing it down to 4 weeks from 12? Again what stage of lifter and potential do you have? Are you 18-25 or 35+? Class 3, 1, CMS or MoS? Do you just train for fun or do you want to make it to nationals? Do you have a decent strength base or do you only squat under 140 or less than a typical male weightlifter (we'll say middleweight 77/81 and bigger)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Erdman View Post
    Welcome Macca, the video is not a bad place to start.

    A few things that stand out in your programming:
    1. You have your moderate intensity snatching day right after your squat day. If you plan on squatting hard (not to mention pressing or rowing), then your snatches might end up being a little crappy.
    2. The volume/intensity doesn't look good. Look at Prilepin's chart http://70sbig.com/blog/2012/05/prilepins-chart/ You can see that your loading week (week 2) is only half the volume of what should be a normal training session. Now the chart isn't perfect for everyone, but you can see what you are planning is way low.
    3. Your performance week seems aggressive on intensity. I would recommend something like 85%x2x4 and 95%x1x3. If 95% really moves easy, then you can add some weight.

    On percentage-based programming, it is important not to get too rigid with the weight on the bar. Feel free to adjust the weight a few kilos if things don't feel right. Also you don't need to add 5% to everything the next month. If the previous 4 weeks goes well, just add 2kg or 5lbs and run through it again.
    Thanks Matt. My Squats aren't taken to any extreme very frequently as I can already squat much more than my skill allows me to Snatch/C&J. I often just do 3x3 at a moderate weight so that my legs don't weaken. I did plan on doing push presses or rows on Day 2, so might flip Day 1 and 3 so my comp style snatch training isn't hindered.

    So pretty much just higher volume and a less aggressive jump in intensity? Works for me. I'll keep your last point in mind. Good advice, thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blairbob View Post
    1. I agree with with Matt's above point #1. Kinda depends how old you are, what you lift now and what kind of sets and reps you hit for strength work if you plan on snatching the next day. Shouldn't really matter that much for 60-75% but 80, particularly 85 and above might be meh to a shitshow. Especially in weak 4.

    2. Pulls depends on what sort of lifter you are now. I also view them as intermediate hamstring and back strength work because I feel that way after them the next day. You might not really need pulls if you are a beginner to intermediate lifter. This week I'm going to end up doing pulls M&W because going 3 days in a row isn't gonna happen because I still felt beat yesterday to perform what would be my day 2 (jerks/pp).

    It's been well documented that if you are a beginning lifter, you could just do powers and get an appreciable training effect. I have had a few of my newer lifters just work backoff lifts instead of powers or pulls. If their technique was fine, powers. If it wasn't, lighter % lifts so long as they weren't too tired. Depending on time and energy, I might have a beginner to intermediate level lifter just work positional deadlifts (maybe with pauses) instead of pulls off their 1rm in the usual ranges (85-110/120%).

    3. I've never really seen any hard rules about complexes. I suppose you could look up what Pendlay and Mash use for them but I don't believe any nations outside the US really used them as a standardized part of their training. I sort of think of a pull before a lift as not quite a second rep to count it as a double but like a half rep. So pull from floor+pull from hang and lift from hang is a hard double.

    Is there a particular reason you are compressing it down to 4 weeks from 12? Again what stage of lifter and potential do you have? Are you 18-25 or 35+? Class 3, 1, CMS or MoS? Do you just train for fun or do you want to make it to nationals? Do you have a decent strength base or do you only squat under 140 or less than a typical male weightlifter (we'll say middleweight 77/81 and bigger)?
    I'm late 20's, Class 3. My strength base is there (195 BSq, 155 FSq as a short and thicc 109), but I'm not skilled at Weightlifting so can't use my strength fully. Only coaches near me are Crossfit coaches, and they weren't too helpful at the price they charged so I stopped going. I haven't set a target for competing but have told myself I'll give it a whirl down the track and see what happens, I just train because being strong is fun and Weightlifting is a nice challenge. Beats the monotony of Powerlifting.

    With point 2 & 3 combined, would I then be better off doing complexes like Power Snatch+Snatch or Power Clean+Clean+Jerk? I only really chose Pulls+Lifts because I saw the North Korean's warm up with Pulls+Snatches and have seen other athletes do similar.

    The only reason I compressed it to 4 weeks was because it was easy to do. I wasn't too sure how to add heavy singles to the program without making them too light to be useful in the first 4 weeks of triples.

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    Complexes depend on what the lifter technique needs. If a lifter is poor at moving under the bar, then powers don't make sense. If they crash under the bar or cut their pull short, powers make sense. If a lifter was poor at recovering the bar or stable in the Sn, adding an OHS makes sense. Or adding FS to fatigue the legs before jerks. I suppose you could even do jerk drives before jerks if a lifter wasn't fully driving the bar and they want to smash their clavicles. Same goes with PushPress and PushJerk before Split Jerk if a lifter was cutting the drive short. You get the idea. Also sometimes adding something like a pull or pushpress before jerk may be good if the lifters tries to overmuscle their lifts.

    Yes, the North Koreans do those PC pulls where they don't fully catch/rack to get the timing and possibly to pull high. Or maybe to have them sort of do a pseudo double.We'll never probably know why they do them though I want to say I've also seen the Japanese do similar pulls but can't remember if the South Koreans do them as well.

    Pull in Pull+lift can also get a lifter out of their head or as a timing mechanism or to cue keeping the bar close. If a lifter had a tendency to pull too high or move under the bar slowly, just a pull extension may suffice.

    I could guess that if your squat strength is beyond your classics, the same goes with upper body push and pull strength given your prior PL history. if you are just a class 3 in the soviet class system (and I'm going off the 2015 levels not the more recent ones I would have to dig to find) then I'm guessing an 85Sn and 100CJ isn't that taxing if you Sq 195 and could PP beyond your classic lifts.

    I suppose you could also BS on Fri to give your body a bit more time to recover from them unless you are purposefully trying to curb your lifts a bit on Wed. FS might be easier on Tu before the Wed but if you don't CJ very heavy, it might not matter if you BS heavy the day before heavy Sn and light CJ.

    Also if you could manage it, I could see maybe adding some hamstring/PC work before a rest day on Wed or Fri. OTOH, sometimes after heavy singles, I'm just wiped to squat or do much else afterwards.

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    beginners/ starting; Generally depending (but you don’t quite fit my recommendations, with the powerlifting background)

    In beginners IMO one of the basic principles is that each day of reasonable training be followed by a complete rest day from WTL. So no WT training on Tuesday even if you can. Monday is programmed with enough volume so you’d have no desire to train Tuesday. Squats on all days, pulls on none. Although clean DL could be done once/week. You will do some version of snatch and clean/jerk/CJ every day of the 3 training days (the singular focus is in practicing the classic lifts, preferably in whole and less emphasis on power or partial versions). Complexes(typically 6reps) can be done but always below 60% and as an appropriate warmup for the main exercise. For the other lifts you may well not go over 70-80% for 3 months. Percentages may be planned but they really depend on the quality of movement session to session and how well recovered you are session to session.

    You need to do minimally 3 exercises per day, but somewhere between 3-6 exercises. At least until you develop some work capacity. You could think in terms of 6 exercises= high volume, 4 exercises ave volume, 2-3 exercises lowest volume. There are many variations on this theme with still getting low to high volume load with keeping the exercise # the same for every day. You need to learn to work quickly within a 2 hrs period. Do well after 3 months and that TUESDAY could be added but it is very light and low volume day. Find what is suitable for your fitness now(you may not have the work capacity to do 6 exercises initially) and reevaluate in 12 wks(or so)

    Your program is problematic (see some other people's suggestions), I don’t think at your level there is anything in the video that is appropriate to your circumstances.

    Prilepin’s table is a microscopic piece of wtl programming. It is not remotely the holy grail. Nobody takes the time to do any background research on other writings of this great academic/coach . I am sure Prilepin would roll over in his grave if he could see how it was being used. As Everett says, he’s never met a coach who used it.

    A relevant Prilepin paper

    Monthly training load of class 2 and class 3 wtlers training with 70% of maximum. 1974

    Prilepin’s 1st words can be thought of as a key training concept
    It’s important for both advanced lifters and those of lower ranks to reach top results with the least expenditure of strength, nervous energy, and time. Unnecessary stress (in the form of training load) can be the cause of overstrain, injuries, ect.
    Lifters use various wts beginning with 50% and going up.

    Now great coaches ask questions, they ask the right question, going where few dare. He asked 2 basic questions.
    Is training with the same weight feasible in this class of lifter? If so how many lifts should be performed so the results will properly grow?

    Training period was 10 wks, trained 3 x weekly for 1.5 to 2 hrs. 70% lifts in all exercises except pulls; 100% of sn and cJ.

    It turned out that all 3 grouping 15 reps per exercise and 20 reps per exercise and 25 reps per exercise made progress. With the best results in the lower 2 rep groupings. The 1st group had monthly vol of 675 reps the 2nd 900 reps and the 3rd 1125 reps. Interestingly the 3rd grouping had the best increase in dynamometer. I assume hand???

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    Quote Originally Posted by robo View Post
    beginners/ starting; Generally depending (but you don’t quite fit my recommendations, with the powerlifting background)

    In beginners IMO one of the basic principles is that each day of reasonable training be followed by a complete rest day from WTL. So no WT training on Tuesday even if you can. Monday is programmed with enough volume so you’d have no desire to train Tuesday. Squats on all days, pulls on none. Although clean DL could be done once/week. You will do some version of snatch and clean/jerk/CJ every day of the 3 training days (the singular focus is in practicing the classic lifts, preferably in whole and less emphasis on power or partial versions). Complexes(typically 6reps) can be done but always below 60% and as an appropriate warmup for the main exercise. For the other lifts you may well not go over 70-80% for 3 months. Percentages may be planned but they really depend on the quality of movement session to session and how well recovered you are session to session.

    You need to do minimally 3 exercises per day, but somewhere between 3-6 exercises. At least until you develop some work capacity. You could think in terms of 6 exercises= high volume, 4 exercises ave volume, 2-3 exercises lowest volume. There are many variations on this theme with still getting low to high volume load with keeping the exercise # the same for every day. You need to learn to work quickly within a 2 hrs period. Do well after 3 months and that TUESDAY could be added but it is very light and low volume day. Find what is suitable for your fitness now(you may not have the work capacity to do 6 exercises initially) and reevaluate in 12 wks(or so)

    Your program is problematic (see some other people's suggestions), I don’t think at your level there is anything in the video that is appropriate to your circumstances.

    Prilepin’s table is a microscopic piece of wtl programming. It is not remotely the holy grail. Nobody takes the time to do any background research on other writings of this great academic/coach . I am sure Prilepin would roll over in his grave if he could see how it was being used. As Everett says, he’s never met a coach who used it.

    A relevant Prilepin paper

    Monthly training load of class 2 and class 3 wtlers training with 70% of maximum. 1974

    Prilepin’s 1st words can be thought of as a key training concept
    It’s important for both advanced lifters and those of lower ranks to reach top results with the least expenditure of strength, nervous energy, and time. Unnecessary stress (in the form of training load) can be the cause of overstrain, injuries, ect.
    Lifters use various wts beginning with 50% and going up.

    Now great coaches ask questions, they ask the right question, going where few dare. He asked 2 basic questions.
    Is training with the same weight feasible in this class of lifter? If so how many lifts should be performed so the results will properly grow?

    Training period was 10 wks, trained 3 x weekly for 1.5 to 2 hrs. 70% lifts in all exercises except pulls; 100% of sn and cJ.

    It turned out that all 3 grouping 15 reps per exercise and 20 reps per exercise and 25 reps per exercise made progress. With the best results in the lower 2 rep groupings. The 1st group had monthly vol of 675 reps the 2nd 900 reps and the 3rd 1125 reps. Interestingly the 3rd grouping had the best increase in dynamometer. I assume hand???
    Interesting. So when Prilepin says 70% at 3-6 reps per set, total volume at 12-24 reps, he means 4 sets of 3-6 reps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inqk79 View Post
    Interesting. So when Prilepin says 70% at 3-6 reps per set, total volume at 12-24 reps, he means 4 sets of 3-6 reps?
    Only he could give that answer(he like all authors below are dead), in my estimation it COULD, so YES. It would depend on the fit within the programming, ie. what exercise, what day, why, and in who, ect.

    Whether Roman, Medvedev, Chernyak, Vorobiev, Falameev, ect the training parameters are guidelines and the numbers are not as rigid as people MAY think. Many of these authors make a point regarding monthly volume as ONE example to say + or – 20% a given number. Prelipin suggests OPTIMALLY (based on one small study) those of class 2 or class 3 should train with 675 to 900 reps. He might even say there might a circumstance where a lifter should train at 1125 reps (the outlier). IMO RIGID application was not exactly what they ALL had in mind. The presumption on my part would be these numbers would be for preparation months. A competition month would be ~ 30% less.

    The above study also suggests what we already know; beginners will improve on almost any program (all 3 groups had higher results).

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    Quote Originally Posted by robo View Post
    Only he could give that answer(he like all authors below are dead), in my estimation it COULD, so YES. It would depend on the fit within the programming, ie. what exercise, what day, why, and in who, ect.

    Whether Roman, Medvedev, Chernyak, Vorobiev, Falameev, ect the training parameters are guidelines and the numbers are not as rigid as people MAY think. Many of these authors make a point regarding monthly volume as ONE example to say + or – 20% a given number. Prelipin suggests OPTIMALLY (based on one small study) those of class 2 or class 3 should train with 675 to 900 reps. He might even say there might a circumstance where a lifter should train at 1125 reps (the outlier). IMO RIGID application was not exactly what they ALL had in mind. The presumption on my part would be these numbers would be for preparation months. A competition month would be ~ 30% less.

    The above study also suggests what we already know; beginners will improve on almost any program (all 3 groups had higher results).
    Where do you find the text from Prilepin? I’ve been searching on the internet, but can only find texts from Roman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inqk79 View Post
    Where do you find the text from Prilepin? I’ve been searching on the internet, but can only find texts from Roman.
    1974 Russian yearbook, don't think Charniga stocks it, not sure where it can be found

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